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    Fake patched BDU and DCU - ebay

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    Post by P-E on Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:45 am

    I've noticed recently there're more and more fake patched or repatched BDU and DCU. This problem occurs very often, and this is very bad for our hobby...

    I've noticed these last weeks that this seller on ebay sold some faked / repatched jacket :

    http://www.ebay.com/sch/treesuit/m.html?item=141465341962&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562

    Maybe I'm wrong, but I've a very bad feeling with some of his auctions. These last weeks, he sold some USAF DCU with Army shoulder sleeve insignia, jackets with what looks like added or replaced insignia, or very weird modifications. I.e. :

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Men-039-s-US-Army-Special-Operations-Command-Airborne-BDU-jacket-Rare-/361161243872?nma=true&si=jWAN7om%252BqUiVQwwemu9c1BtrPrA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/US-Army-Special-Forces-or-Special-Operations-Forces-modified-DCU-very-unique-/361139918147?nma=true&si=jWAN7om%252BqUiVQwwemu9c1BtrPrA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Modified-MCCUU-Woodland-MARPAT-jacket-rarely-seen-4-/361159848584?nma=true&si=jWAN7om%252BqUiVQwwemu9c1BtrPrA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 (exactly the same kind of modification as the Army DCU above...)

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/10th-Mountain-Division-BDU-RANGER-tabbed-and-complete-/141492544537?nma=true&si=jWAN7om%252BqUiVQwwemu9c1BtrPrA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 (you can see the ghost marks of a previous sewing under some insignia - including the 10th Mountain Div patch on the shoulder)

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/2nd-Infantry-Division-men-039-s-modified-BDU-jacket-fully-badged-too-/141498574736?nma=true&si=jWAN7om%252BqUiVQwwemu9c1BtrPrA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557  (the pockets looks they have been moved recently, the pathfinder badge is not properly sewn and it looks like the expert infantryman badge was replaced)

    There're some more examples from this guy...I just wanted to warn other collectors they'd better be very attentive to what they purchase...

    Am I the only one to have doubt on his stuff ?


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    Post by PriorityOne on Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:13 am

    Some of jackets with fading have way to good of condition.patches compared to the jacket.
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    Post by RedLegGI on Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:25 am

    P-E wrote:I've noticed recently there're more and more fake patched or repatched BDU and DCU. This problem occurs very often, and this is very bad for our hobby...

    I've noticed these last weeks that this seller on ebay sold some faked / repatched jacket :

    http://www.ebay.com/sch/treesuit/m.html?item=141465341962&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562

    Maybe I'm wrong, but I've a very bad feeling with some of his auctions. These last weeks, he sold some USAF DCU with Army shoulder sleeve insignia, jackets with what looks like added or replaced insignia, or very weird modifications. I.e. :

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Men-039-s-US-Army-Special-Operations-Command-Airborne-BDU-jacket-Rare-/361161243872?nma=true&si=jWAN7om%252BqUiVQwwemu9c1BtrPrA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/US-Army-Special-Forces-or-Special-Operations-Forces-modified-DCU-very-unique-/361139918147?nma=true&si=jWAN7om%252BqUiVQwwemu9c1BtrPrA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Modified-MCCUU-Woodland-MARPAT-jacket-rarely-seen-4-/361159848584?nma=true&si=jWAN7om%252BqUiVQwwemu9c1BtrPrA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 (exactly the same kind of modification as the Army DCU above...)

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/10th-Mountain-Division-BDU-RANGER-tabbed-and-complete-/141492544537?nma=true&si=jWAN7om%252BqUiVQwwemu9c1BtrPrA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 (you can see the ghost marks of a previous sewing under some insignia - including the 10th Mountain Div patch on the shoulder)

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/2nd-Infantry-Division-men-039-s-modified-BDU-jacket-fully-badged-too-/141498574736?nma=true&si=jWAN7om%252BqUiVQwwemu9c1BtrPrA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557  (the pockets looks they have been moved recently, the pathfinder badge is not properly sewn and it looks like the expert infantryman badge was replaced)

    There're some more examples from this guy...I just wanted to warn other collectors they'd better be very attentive to what they purchase...

    Am I the only one to have doubt on his stuff ?


    I'm glad you're not the only one who noticed this seller and had the red flags pop up. I've learned to watch in my ebay feed for his stuff and avoid it. As you mentioned it seems a lot of these uniforms seem to show inconsistencies with legit uniforms. Also some of the uniforms, beyond 'standard' ones, seem to be at the very peek of rare but are off for one reason or another. I've been discussing this guy with other members and we've all decided to avoid this seller like the plague.
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    Post by usall on Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:34 pm

    RedLegGI wrote:

    I'm glad you're not the only one who noticed this seller and had the red flags pop up. I've learned to watch in my ebay feed for his stuff and avoid it. As you mentioned it seems a lot of these uniforms seem to show inconsistencies with legit uniforms. Also some of the uniforms, beyond 'standard' ones, seem to be at the very peek of rare but are off for one reason or another. I've been discussing this guy with other members and we've all decided to avoid this seller like the plague.

    + 1
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    Post by Ewart on Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:52 pm

    Isn't there a Treesuit on the forum? Are they one and the same?

    I got this DCU off him the other week:

    Fake patched BDU and DCU - ebay IMG_1762_zpsedae6021

    Fake patched BDU and DCU - ebay IMG_1763_zpsbad40966

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    Post by DeOpressoLiber on Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:33 pm

    That USAF DCU seems to go against all regs.just look at how the tab is in an angle, and how the patch and ranks arent lined up... Besides, a USSF SSI on the left sleeve of a USAF DCU? Doesnt make sense to me.
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    Post by Ewart on Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:53 pm

    I'm aware of that now. At the time. I didn't notice it on the auction photos.

    However USAF guys gave worn Army SSI when attached to Army units. I have a legit USAF Captains BDU that is patched 8 82nd Airborne. So it is possible.

    But yes on closer look I'm going with the consensus that the USSF one isn't legit.
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    Post by RedLegGI on Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:46 pm

    Ewart wrote:I'm aware of that now. At the time. I didn't notice it on the auction photos.

    However USAF guys gave worn Army SSI when attached to Army units. I have a legit USAF Captains BDU that is patched 8 82nd Airborne. So it is possible.  

    But yes on closer look I'm going with the consensus that the USSF one isn't legit.

    The alignment is weird and in the auction photos ( I remember seeing this one) It didn't look like it was off or misaligned. I have had a couple BDUs as well with Army patches on them as they're a liason. Also seen a few with combat patches on as well but those tend to be the JTAC types.
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    Post by airborne1968 on Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:56 pm

    I do not know this seller and have never bought from him before but I'll play Devils advocate. I think the 10th mountain BDU is good.  The 10th SSI was likely moved down because the soldier was in the division LRSD who wear the airborne tab.  The pathfinder angled corner is legit (I have seen several of these).  If the soldier went from a Senior to Master wing the EIB most like would have been moved.  The flag was worn for Operation Uphold Democracy (Haiti 1994).  This is the early BDU with the narrow cuff tab.

    The 2 ID BDU may also be legit as you do not have to be airborne qualified to attend/graduate from the pathfinder course. What I don't like is the patch distance (too close) to the shoulder seam. You see that in a lot of the sellers uniforms. And, the possible "recycling" of older style name tapes (shorter than the pocket width).

    MOSs authorized to attend:  "Enlisted MOS: Active Army, Reserve or National Guard Soldiers in the grades of E-3 through E-7 in the following MOS are authorized to attend: 11B, 11C, (11Z must be assigned to a Pathfinder Billet), 15Q, 19D, 88M, 92R (skill levels 3 and 4 only), and 92Y (skill levels 1 through 3). All other grades and MOSs require a waiver. Enlisted applicants must have a GT score of 110 or above."
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    Post by anelles on Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:17 pm

    I bought 2 DCUs from this seller a few weeks ago, upon receiving them they were obviously fake.

    Most if not all of the patches were freshly sewn. Most damning was the fact that both DCUs (one army and one air force) both had foliage green thread on the inside and tan on the outside. Odd but not indicative of anything on a single uniform, but on 2 unrelated uniforms, certainly signs of a faker.

    I called him out on it, he admitted to adding patches (that he felt were missing) to the DCUs and refunded my money.

    Obviously wont buy from him again.

    If you bought from him, check the thread on the inside of the jacket, if it's foliage green, I think it's been faked.

    Note: The 2 DCUs I bought were a 4th ID DCU with a SF tab and a Air Force BDU with a 101st AB patch. If they are listed again, those are fake.
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    Post by airborne1968 on Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:31 pm

    anelles wrote:I bought 2 DCUs from this seller a few weeks ago, upon receiving them they were obviously fake.

    Most if not all of the patches were freshly sewn. Most damning was the fact that both DCUs (one army and one air force) both had foliage green thread on the inside and tan on the outside. Odd but not indicative of anything on a single uniform, but on 2 unrelated uniforms, certainly signs of a faker.

    I called him out on it, he admitted to adding patches (that he felt were missing) to the DCUs and refunded my money.

    Obviously wont buy from him again.

    If you bought from him, check the thread on the inside of the jacket, if it's foliage green, I think it's been faked.

    Note: The 2 DCUs I bought were a 4th ID DCU with a SF tab and a Air Force BDU with a 101st AB patch. If they are listed again, those are fake.

    The proof is in the pudding..."he admitted to adding patches "
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    Post by Nkomo on Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:31 am

    He has been banned from this forum.
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    Post by msmith275 on Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:35 pm

    Awesome work ferreting that out guys. Thanks for the swift action! Mark
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    Post by Ewart on Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:15 pm

    anelles wrote:I bought 2 DCUs from this seller a few weeks ago, upon receiving them they were obviously fake.

    Most if not all of the patches were freshly sewn. Most damning was the fact that both DCUs (one army and one air force) both had foliage green thread on the inside and tan on the outside. Odd but not indicative of anything on a single uniform, but on 2 unrelated uniforms, certainly signs of a faker.


    I've just checked the other DCU I bought off him. It has similar stitching on the inside.

    And I can clearly see where the name tape has been added, I have now messaged him about it and will await the response.
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    Post by RedLegGI on Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:27 pm

    Ewart wrote:
    anelles wrote:I bought 2 DCUs from this seller a few weeks ago, upon receiving them they were obviously fake.

    Most if not all of the patches were freshly sewn. Most damning was the fact that both DCUs (one army and one air force) both had foliage green thread on the inside and tan on the outside. Odd but not indicative of anything on a single uniform, but on 2 unrelated uniforms, certainly signs of a faker.


    I've just checked the other DCU I bought off him. It has similar stitching on the inside.

    And I can clearly see where the name tape has been added, I have now messaged him about it and will await the response.

    Looking forward to seeing what he has to say. Hopefully he'll square up with you on those.
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    Post by Ewart on Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:08 pm

    He has replied and stated that I can have a refund pending the return of the items.

    I just need to work out if shipping them back is financially viable UK - US. If not I'll just have to break down the jackets and try and recover my cash from the sale of the patches and surplus shirts.

    His full reply:

    'received your e-mail and frankly, you can just return both items without any problems. Both items were purchased in a large lot of DCU's some time ago. All the items I do come across, I really have no idea what the history is on them or who owned them, or who did the sewing on them, etc. I had a similar experience with another ebay member accusing me of fakery some time ago. The items on the 1st Air Cav uniform are as I found them as the same with the Air Force DCU.
    Obviously your not satisfied, so please, just return the items in the same condition you found them and I'll refund your money once I receive them. Thanks'
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    Post by zvez on Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:36 pm

    this brings up a point I'm kinda curious how it'd be handled. With everyone apparently moving to velcro backed patches, it's going to be virtually impossible to prove the authenticity of the patches to the uniform. Or is there a way to tell?
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    Post by anelles on Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:23 pm

    zvez wrote:this brings up a point I'm kinda curious how it'd be handled. With everyone apparently moving to velcro backed patches, it's going to be virtually impossible to prove the authenticity of the patches to the uniform. Or is there a way to tell?

    Yeah, it makes it really hard. I personally only have 1 patched ACU in my collection. Found at a thrift store fully patched for nearly nothing. Pretty boring patch setup too. Figured the chances of a put together were basically 0.
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    Post by PriorityOne on Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:17 pm

    I got lucky to get an ACU directly from a Vet patched and named. In the future the only way to tell will be straight from the vet or from other trustworthy dealers and collectors.
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    Post by RedLegGI on Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:20 am

    Velcro will be a beast. Provenance is key. Cheaper than dirt price (on ebay) is another indicator (instead of humped up prices on faked jackets). There are some guidelines to go by.
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    Post by cybercarnage on Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:25 am

    Although I'm not a DCU or modern US collector really at all, I figured i would share some of my mentalities when it comes to collecting uniforms with insignia on them. Unless I really trust who it comes from or you can see honest wear, I generally assume that something is just a uniform with insignia added, and the prices I offer and am willing to pay are adjusted accordingly. I realized after several years of collecting this is really the only thing that works for me. It all gets down to the fact that if you can't prove something (i.e original patches) it doesn't make sense to price it as an original in my opinion

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    Post by P-E on Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:00 am

    zvez wrote:this brings up a point I'm kinda curious how it'd be handled. With everyone apparently moving to velcro backed patches, it's going to be virtually impossible to prove the authenticity of the patches to the uniform. Or is there a way to tell?

    There's no way to be sure of authenticity except if you know its provenance, or maybe have good pictures of the soldier using them on the ground. But in more than a decade of collection, I only get such "provenance / pictured" uniforms a few times...

    For BDU and DCU, it's usually "easy" to say when something has been faked. You've to learn the regulation of how insignia has to be sewn, order of insignia, etc. because most of the faker are not aware of these rules. However, there're also very well documented or experienced seller who know perfectly how sewn insignia in respect of the regulation, so it's not soo easy. Our of the knowledge of the regulation, there's also the feeling, the reputation of seller and so on. If you see a used jacket with brand new insignia, it's doubtful.

    You'd better also analyse precisely the pictures of auction, to see for example if there're marks of a previous patch sewing. Sometime soldiers themselve replace their insignia (for example if they change unit, or get new badges, or an upgrade of badge level) so it's not always a good way to be sure. But it's a question of feeling.  

    Also, you'd better avoid the "too good to be true". A seller who want to sell an uniform at a good price with make it very special with uncommon patches, etc. Also, avoid Special Operation uniforms, except when you're certain of the provenance (just take a look at the number of modified DCU coat right now on ebay..there're more of them than full patched uniforms...). Do not forget that special operations / forces uniforms are the most collected, but also the most faked (simply because they interess people and sell more). I personaly choose not to focus on them, except when I've the possibility to find a really good one, one were doubt are excluded. For example my DCU of SFC John McElhiney, or my Special Forces Veterinary Major Goldsmith. I personaly choose to have only a few, but exempt of doubt, than have hundreds of them but do not know their provenance or have doubt.

    For ACU and Multicam, you're right saying things are harder because they are on velcro. With velcro, it's too easy to patch it at your will, and you can easily turn a very common jacket in something rare in a few seconds and at small expense. Personnaly, I choose to focus only on DBDU, DCU and BDU for that reason, and I have absolutely no ACU or multicam in my collection. A few years ago, the army changed its regulations and now insignia are allowed to be directly sewn on ACU, so that makes them more interesting I think. But up to now, I didn't have seen lots of them fully patched for sale, none I considered as really interesting. As for multicam, if one day I purchase one, it'll be definitely one empty of all insignia, or I'll pay a low price considering I won't buy the history of the item because there're doubt of authenticity.

    That's my theory, and in reality this is exactly what I do before purchasing a jacket. Also, when I see a full patched jacket, I ALWAYS make researches about the wearer. This could also be a way to be sure of authenticity. We do not always find the ID of soldier (that'll be too easy, and if it was the case I would seriously question the security of soldiers), but sometimes you can get really good surprises...

    In other words, if you do nothing else than just purchasing jackets to have them, then you can get very bad surprise. If you take the time to see, search and learn, then you can get very good surprises and avoid the worst. lazy people only get what they deserve...the new collectors are the most vulnerable indeed : they have less knowledge and are interesting in nearly everything. They have to learn a lot, or ask questions. This is also the reason of existance of this forum indeed... Wink


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    Post by zvez on Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:14 am

    this is spot on. I think a lot folks get really hung up on the insignia arrangement, but as we all know unless you physicallly got it from the guy that wore it you have no real way to know if it's legit.

    cybercarnage wrote:Although I'm not a DCU or modern US collector really at all, I figured i would share some of my mentalities when it comes to collecting uniforms with insignia on them. Unless I really trust who it comes from or you can see honest wear, I generally assume that something is just a uniform with insignia added, and the prices I offer and am willing to pay are adjusted accordingly. I realized after several years of collecting this is really the only thing that works for me. It all gets down to the fact that if you can't prove something (i.e original patches) it doesn't make sense to price it as an original in my opinion

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    Post by anelles on Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:49 pm

    Ugh, was just sorting some stuff in my collection and realized I had bought another DCU from TreeSuit in early December. It also had the foliage thread on the inside side of all the patches, clearly also a fake.

    I didn't realize I had purchased items from him twice....
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    Post by anelles on Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:08 pm

    So a question for you guys.

    Since I'm stuck with 1 of these faked uniforms, what should I do with it. It has no place in my collection. It's a modified DCU. The sleeve pockets seem to be maybe legit, but the velcro and all insignia were added onto it.

    Cut off the patches, sell the components?
    Sell it as is, with a disclaimer that it's not legit? Some airsofter would probably love it.

    What would you guys do?
    Longbranch
    Longbranch
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    Post by Longbranch on Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:24 pm

    In the past I have sold items I felt were questionable with the disclaimer that I doubted their authenticity and then sold them at a price that was basically the sum of the parts. However, after some thought, I now lean towards stripping any questionable insignia and parting such items out. I'd rather take the monetary hit than risk damaging my reputation by selling questionable stuff. I sell everything as if I was the buyer, and always ask myself "what would I like to see in the ad if I was on the other end of this deal?".

    I try to be very diligent in NOT acquiring bad items in the first place, and prefer to get my items from sources that aren't as likely to be compromised (surplus stores, Goodwill, thrift stores, garage sales, directly from veterans, gun shows, flea markets, etc.). Of course, those sources aren't always a sure thing, but in my experience, they have been more reliable than many of the Ebay dealers who seem to specialize in more modern militaria. There are good items that pop up on Ebay, but sometimes you have to do your homework to ensure everything is good to go.

    It's a shame, as we now have banned two contributing members for selling questionable items in online auctions.
    anelles
    anelles
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    Post by anelles on Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:36 pm

    Longbranch wrote:In the past I have sold items I felt were questionable with the disclaimer that I doubted their authenticity and then sold them at a price that was basically the sum of the parts. However, after some thought, I now lean towards stripping any questionable insignia and parting such items out. I'd rather take the monetary hit than risk damaging my reputation by selling questionable stuff. I sell everything as if I was the buyer, and always ask myself "what would I like to see in the ad if I was on the other end of this deal?".

    I try to be very diligent in NOT acquiring bad items in the first place, and prefer to get my items from sources that aren't as likely to be compromised (surplus stores, Goodwill, thrift stores, garage sales, directly from veterans, gun shows, flea markets, etc.). Of course, those sources aren't always a sure thing, but in my experience, they have been more reliable than many of the Ebay dealers who seem to specialize in more modern militaria. There are good items that pop up on Ebay, but sometimes you have to do your homework to ensure everything is good to go.

    It's a shame, as we now have banned two contributing members for selling questionable items in online auctions.

    Agreed, eBay isn't my primary source for uniforms either. I just figured a forum member would be trust worthy, it's a shame. But it's been dealt with luckily.

    I think I'll strip off the insignia, it's all 100% fake. Even if I sell this with a disclaimer, I can't be sure the next owner would. I'd rather prevent it from getting into circulation.

    With the added patches removed, it's a nice plain modified DCU, I'll probably just keep that. No evidence of any patches on it ever besides what TreeSuit added.
    Zeked
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    Post by Zeked on Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:59 pm

    anelles wrote:So a question for you guys.

    Since I'm stuck with 1 of these faked uniforms, what should I do with it. It has no place in my collection. It's a modified DCU. The sleeve pockets seem to be maybe legit, but the velcro and all insignia were added onto it.

    Cut off the patches, sell the components?
    Sell it as is, with a disclaimer that it's not legit? Some airsofter would probably love it.

    What would you guys do?

    I added the fake DCU I got from him to my 'crap box' of fake stuff I have purchased over the years. I like to keep that box as a reminder to spend money prudently. I like what Dan said and I think it is best to just remove the patches, chalk it up to experience and and not risk your reputation. Too bad this sort of stuff has to happen but it does. I am glad collectors have a place like this that we can share these types of things.

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