NATOs combat mission ends in Afghanistan

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    airborne1968
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    NATOs combat mission ends in Afghanistan

    Post by airborne1968 on Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:58 pm

    Starting a new chapter in Afghanistan.

    http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/pentagon/2014/12/08/afghan-combat-ends-ceremony-120814/20083969/?sf34454014=%5B%271%27%5D

    msmith275
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    Re: NATOs combat mission ends in Afghanistan

    Post by msmith275 on Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:24 pm

    Hmmm... Where have I seen that slogan before?  

    But it means that the American military can get back to important things like the tattoo policy, emasculating junior officers and senior NCOs, completing the posting of "Consideration of Others" signs on bases and other such important work. And it would be nice to see a couple new camo pattern uniforms come out. The other ones are so last season by now.    

    Meanwhile, SOF and other "combat advisors" will still be "TIC" with no visible end in sight.  Politics aside, it is still in the world's best interest for Afghanistan to emerge from medieval darkness and become a place where kids can go through puberty without barbarism or post traumatic stress.  We got a long, long way to go.

    As Plato wrote: "Only the dead have seen the end of war."

    At least we can all make sure all OEF/OIF veterans are respected and their stories are preserved and told through our collections.

    Thanks, Tom.
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    Grey Marine82
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    Re: NATOs combat mission ends in Afghanistan

    Post by Grey Marine82 on Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:00 pm

    Saw Hagel tonight saying that we are going to keep troops in Afghanistan (10,000 or so) there until sometime in 2015!
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    Zeked
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    Re: NATOs combat mission ends in Afghanistan

    Post by Zeked on Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:41 am

    I dont know about you guys but I just never see Afghanistan changing it's warring culture. It has been a way of life for so long I think it will always be that way in one for or another. To me, the only chance for anything to change is to give the new government time to build the institutions of govt and earn some trust from the populace. But the corruption is so bad nobody would anyone trust those institutions? I think having a contingent of Americans there is a good idea if we can help bring stability, safety and give the economy time to develop. No question it will be a challenge given all the fighters entering Afghanistan but if peace returns it will have been worth it. Off the soap box now! Thanks Clete
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    Massimo72
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    Re: NATOs combat mission ends in Afghanistan

    Post by Massimo72 on Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:42 pm

    The fact is that we tried to give Afghans democracy, something that they never experienced nor they seemed to have had the need for, since their very complex tribal system and laws worked well for them for centuries.
    In WWII for example, the Allied forces fought in Europe to restore democracy and lawful order as it was before the Axis powers started the war, something that the people of Europe wanted back.
    Afghans don't understand us or our culture as much as we don't understand theirs, there's very little common ground between our two worlds that seem to be not only far apart geographically, but also in time. We tried to establish a government on the model of the Western Powers that proved to be weak and deeply corrupt making the population turn back to the old tribal ways and laws exploited by the Talibans for their agenda. The poor Afghan people have to trade modernization and progress against stability and after decades of war people only want that and carry on with their lives...

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    Re: NATOs combat mission ends in Afghanistan

    Post by msmith275 on Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:53 pm

    Massimo72 wrote:The fact is that we tried to give Afghans democracy, something that they never experienced nor they seemed to have had the need for, since their very complex tribal system and laws worked well for them for centuries.
    In WWII for example, the Allied forces fought in Europe to restore democracy and lawful order as it was before the Axis powers started the war, something that the people of Europe wanted back.
    Afghans don't understand us or our culture as much as we don't understand theirs, there's very little common ground between our two worlds that seem to be not only far apart geographically, but also in time. We tried to establish a government on the model of the Western Powers that proved to be weak and deeply corrupt making the population turn back to the old tribal ways and laws exploited by the Talibans for their agenda. The poor Afghan people have to trade modernization and progress against stability and after decades of war people only want that and carry on with their lives...

    Excellent observation. Mark
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    Massimo72
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    Re: NATOs combat mission ends in Afghanistan

    Post by Massimo72 on Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:11 pm

    Thank you Mark, I wish I was wrong though, it just saddens me that after all the effort and our brave men and women that fought there for so many years, the inefficiency,weakness and corruptness of the government will in the end be a determining factor on weather Afghanistan will fall back into the hands of the Talibans and their allies or not.
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    zvez
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    Re: NATOs combat mission ends in Afghanistan

    Post by zvez on Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:37 pm

    same goes for Iraq, lots of wasted lives in both places.


    Massimo72 wrote:Thank you Mark, I wish I was wrong though, it just saddens me that after all the effort and our brave men and women that fought there for so many years, the inefficiency,weakness and corruptness of the government will in the end be a determining factor on weather Afghanistan will fall back into the hands of the Talibans and their allies or not.
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    Ben
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    Re: NATOs combat mission ends in Afghanistan

    Post by Ben on Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:30 am

    Massimo72 wrote:The fact is that we tried to give Afghans democracy, something that they never experienced nor they seemed to have had the need for, since their very complex tribal system and laws worked well for them for centuries.
    In WWII for example, the Allied forces fought in Europe to restore democracy and lawful order as it was before the Axis powers started the war, something that the people of Europe wanted back.
    Afghans don't understand us or our culture as much as we don't understand theirs, there's very little common ground between our two worlds that seem to be not only far apart geographically, but also in time. We tried to establish a government on the model of the Western Powers that proved to be weak and deeply corrupt making the population turn back to the old tribal ways and laws exploited by the Talibans for their agenda. The poor Afghan people have to trade modernization and progress against stability and after decades of war people only want that and carry on with their lives...
    A thousand times this.

    Our system works for us because it's what we know. The same can be said for them. Sure, it's primitive in our eyes. I'd be lying if I said I understood why they live that way, but then again I'm biased because this [Western] life is all I've ever known. To each his own. Ours is a system they have never known and therefore can't appreciate. They lack the understanding of, and infrastructure to support, a system like ours. If they see it as too complex, they abandon it. You are completely correct in your assessment that the new government was/is/continues to be weak. It turned people off to that concept and they reverted back to what they knew.

    There will always be dissidents and unrest. Violence is a fact of life in that region of the world, it always has been and will continue to be. The angry radicals will continue to exploit instability as a means to control what they want and punish those who won't conform. You cannot change what has become a tragically intrinsic aspect of their culture. It's impossible to know who the enemy is -- the guy giving you intel and offering tea today could be the same one planting an IED at your compound gate next week. They infiltrate the military and murder their own soldiers, as well as ours. They coerce government officials to do their bidding. They are everywhere. And the ones not killed merely fade back in amongst the regular people, biding their time to fight another day. Recidivism amongst these types is high. They teach their children the same hatred that was ingrained into them and the pattern continues. Additionally, they sell this twisted ideology to impressionable youngsters outside of their realm as well, as a means of achieving glory and recognition. And sadly, their young minds buy into it. Their children will be the ones shooting at our children in another conflict a few years down the road. Look at ISIS right now... many of these fighters have barely finished puberty. I would not be at all surprised to learn that some of them are children of terrorists our troops fought against when OIF kicked off 12 years ago. It's a vicious cycle that is going to take much more than our generation at war to fix. There's a political and ideological change that needs to take place as well.

    Don't get me wrong, the Taliban was definitely counter to the system they had in place and I'm glad we dislodged them from power, but installing a system based upon our interpretation of how government should be run may not have been the best remedy either. Other nations have tried and failed numerous times in that regard. We are making the same mistakes as other nations who faltered there before. You cannot change something for a people with neither the understanding or appreciation of the sacrifice necessary to make it happen, regardless of what system you're trying to put in place. Afghanistan has not earned its title as the "Graveyard of Empires" for no reason. I believe it is the job of a military to defend its homeland and protect its nations interests, not get bogged down playing the role of world policeman and nation-builder, as we have done. It pains me greatly to think of the likelihood that all our effort in Afghanistan may well have been wasted should that country go the same direction as Iraq.

    This post was not meant to be inflammatory in any way, it is merely my own personal opinion. Off the soapbox now, my 2 cents only...


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